Val Selby [00:00:06]:

Hey, this is Val Selby and after over 20 years online, I can track where my mindset has blocked me. If procrastination, impostor syndrome and a lack of focus have been blocking your biz, then Val Full Volume is here to help you see choices you are making. Get ready to use your expertise to collaborate like a pro as you create the business of your dreams. Now is the time to make changes and live your best life. Let's get to it!

Val Selby [00:00:36]:

Alright, everyone. Welcome back, and thanks for being here this morning. I've got a guest for you. I know it's been a little while since I've had a guest. And I know you've heard me say this before, but, of course, the people were brought into my life at the right time to record because these are also messages that I need to be at the same time. So I would like to welcome Shannon Boyer here to come and talk about courses with us and who knows what else. But thank you for being here, Shannon.

Shannon Boyer [00:01:08]:

Thank you so much. I'm really excited about this topic.

Val Selby [00:01:11]:

It's going to be great. And like I said, we'll get into why I need to hear all of this as well right now as most people do, but please tell my listeners a little bit about you or or what you would like them to know about you.

Shannon Boyer [00:01:23]:

Okay. So I am an educator. I have been in education for more than 20 years. I'm an award winning educator actually. I worked in a college in the foundational side of the college for most of my career. I work with or worked with students who struggled, who wanted to go into post secondary studies, but didn't have the background or the knowledge to do that. And so that really made me hone in on my skills as an educator and how students learn, how people learn and what it takes to present information in an engaging way so that students can achieve the goals that they hope to achieve. It's what's inspired me to go back and get my master's degree to really figure out, like, how can I help my students to the best of my ability. So that's like the bulk of my career.

Shannon Boyer [00:02:13]:

I've recently moved into the online teaching space. Well, you know, I did do online education at the college as well, but this kind of slightly different online course creation that so many entrepreneurs are interested in now. After having my kids in my forties, I accidentally fell into helping people improve their courses and create courses that they were really confident about. So it was just a great opportunity to use all that past knowledge that I had in a market and in an area that's just booming these days.

Val Selby [00:02:46]:

Yeah. And I love it. Like I told you right before, I ran into somebody a couple days ago, and they're in a similar flow. So that's why I know for sure I'm supposed to be getting this message. It's like, alright. I already heard it a little bit from somebody. I definitely get hit over the top of the head with it, obviously. But I know for me, as I'm thinking of what you do and all of that, I'm looking at my own courses.

Val Selby [00:03:11]:

And I know that some of them, they haven't been flops by any means, but I don't even know how to improve them because I come in with my personality, and I'm like, alright. Step 1, step 2, step 3. Do it. You know?

Shannon Boyer [00:03:29]:

Just do what I told you to do. 

Val Selby [00:03:30]:

Exactly. Yeah. It'd be beautiful. It'd be perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Boyer [00:03:35]:

So many people are in your situation, and the fact is that course completion rates for these types of online courses are horribly low, like, surprisingly low. You know, I've heard an average of 10 to 15%, but I've even heard some people quote 7% and even some people quote 3%. So depending on how you count or where you look, the number of people who are actually completing online courses is just abysmal. So, you know, if people are feeling like their courses are not doing as well as they had hoped, they're not alone.

Val Selby [00:04:06]:

Yep.

Shannon Boyer [00:04:07]:

And I think everyone is in the same position that you're in, which is that you've created the course to the best of your ability. You've done it the best that you know how to, but you know also there's like that niggling thing in the back of your mind that say this could be better, but you just don't know how to get there. And that's why people come to me to be frank, you know, because you are the expert in your subject area as so many people are, but not necessarily an expert in education or course creation. To be honest, I know seasoned teachers who cannot do curriculum development, who wouldn't touch course development with a 10 foot pole because it's a completely different set of skills. I don't say that to scare anybody, but just to make you kind of feel better that you're not supposed to know how to do this. And I think there's a lot of people out there who are teaching how to create courses, who are just missing that big chunk about how to actually create the course. It's like here to be here's how you build your audience. Here's how you give it a title.

Shannon Boyer [00:05:14]:

Here's how much you charge. Here's the tech. Here's how you market it. Here's how you launch it. And then in there kind of like just very quickly glazed over is now you create your course. Here's some, you know, PowerPoint slides or templates or something, but there's like, I mean, I went to school for like 6, 7 years to learn how to do that, you know, little piece in the middle about creating the actual the course. So we talked a little bit about mindset before and there's so much to talk about. But one of the things I really fear is that people hear this message, like, everybody's got a course in them.

Shannon Boyer [00:05:50]:

You could do a course in 5 days, blah blah blah. And then they start doing it and they're completely overwhelmed. They don't know where to go. It's not as easy as they expected it to be. And they start to think, oh, maybe this isn't for me. Maybe there's something wrong with me. Maybe my course idea just isn't as good as other people's course ideas. And the fact of the matter is that's probably not true.

Shannon Boyer [00:06:16]:

What's probably true is that they're just missing that piece, those tools, procedures, strategies that educators know about to make their course phenomenal. To teach their students how they need to be taught in order to learn, in order to achieve the transformations that the course creator is hoping that they'll achieve.

Val Selby [00:06:38]:

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that this is a really important message is we will never be experts at everything. So that's why coaches and other people that do services are so important because they're gonna bring that extra key to take you up a level. And it's okay that you're taking us up the level together. You know? It's okay that everything's not 100% us.

Shannon Boyer [00:07:06]:

Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, that's, like, one of the number one things in business is, like, outsource the things that you're not good at or that you hate or that you're struggling with or that take too much of your time. And it's okay to say, you know what? I have all of this knowledge and all of these expertise, but I don't know how to present them in the best way for my students to learn. And I use students, you know, students, learners, those are the people who are buying the products from you, who want to learn from you. Sometimes people are uncomfortable with that word student, but they're students and you are learners, and you're an educator. As soon as you put yourself in that role of taking people's money for a course, promising a result or a transformation or an outcome, you are an educator and there's a responsibility that comes with that, but there is also a lot of joy that comes with that as well.

Val Selby [00:07:57]:

Yeah. Yeah. And I wonder, okay, if you're listening, did you just cringe at the at calling yourself an educator? I know people that do, but that is our and it's not even if we're course creators. That's pretty much everything any of us online are doing. We're creating content to educate people, to help them, to improve them. So it's a mindset switch, I really do believe. And it's been great to watch so many of my academia friends come online because I'm watching what you guys are doing. And I'm like, oh, yeah.

Val Selby [00:08:34]:

Comes online so much easier for a lot of you because you already have certain pieces that we didn't learn.

Shannon Boyer [00:08:42]:

Yeah. But, I mean, there's still so much of it that I'm continuing to learn on an ongoing basis. I mean, marketing. So I think most of the people who are out there selling, like, how to create courses, they're marketing people. They're marketing gurus. And I'm learning so much about that every day. Yeah. No.

Shannon Boyer [00:08:57]:

That is not my wheelhouse. So, yeah, there's a lot of different pieces to it that are totally complicated and people, you know, specialize and make millions of dollars on each of those components of it to access so to expect that somebody coming into this for the 1st time or or maybe, you know, 2nd, 3rd time to not only understand that but to have mastered it.

Val Selby [00:09:18]:

Yeah.

Shannon Boyer [00:09:18]:

That's unrealistic, really. Yep. I talked about the responsibility of being an educator as well. And I really believe that if you are going to put yourself out there, take people's hard earned money and promise a result that you do have a responsibility as an educator to help them achieve that transformation. I think it's a partnership. I think it's kind of a 50-50 responsibility. So your learners have a responsibility to show up, do the work, put in the effort, put in the time, you know, take in what you're putting out there. Mhmm.

Shannon Boyer [00:09:50]:

But you have a responsibility to be producing stellar content that is presented in a way that is engaging and that is broken into manageable chunks that are organized appropriately, following pedagogical principles, I was I was getting in trouble for using that word. Yeah. So it's basically like the science behind teaching and learning is Pedagogy. Right? So using those principles to deliver your content knowledge, skills, attitudes in a way that your students can easily learn. And and so it is a partnership between the learner and the educator. And I think it's really important that people take that responsibility on because it isn't just go to ChatGPT, create a course in 5 hours, it's gonna make you millions and, like, market it to death and put it out there so that as many people buy it. That's not how you have long term success.

Val Selby [00:10:44]:

Right.

Shannon Boyer [00:10:45]:

You might make a few sales or maybe you'll make a lot of sales if you're really good at marketing at the beginning, but you're gonna peter out very quickly. For you to have the long term success for you to be able to scale your business for your learners to want to purchase from you again, recommend your product to other people, get those repeat sales, your course has to be high quality in order to achieve those goals.

Val Selby [00:11:10]:

I love that you're talking about responsibility because a conversation from years ago is popping into my head about the fact that I needed to be removed from the concept that people were not completing my courses, that I needed to remove myself. And and I understand it could've been whatever mindset I was in at that point, but, of course, it stuck with me. It's like, yep. I can't pay attention. I can't be bothered with how many people are completing my courses. I am bothered. I didn't create this stuff. Right? I didn't create this stuff just to throw it in there.

Val Selby [00:11:45]:

Alright. You buy it. You bought it. Great. Thanks for your money. It's like, no. I really wanted them to transform and do the course and have the outcome. So I love that you're saying the exact opposite of what I learned.

Shannon Boyer [00:12:01]:

Well, exactly. I mean, you do have to care because that comes across in your course. It comes across in the interactions that you have with your students. And if you don't care about their success, that's going to come through and that's gonna have the opposite effect of what you want it to have. I think you need to be realistic with yourself, you know. There are people who are going to sign up and then life will happen and, you know, they'll get sick, a family member will get sick, they may decide that that's not the right path for them anymore, right? They're gonna take a different path. So you will have some refunds.

Shannon Boyer [00:12:32]:

You will have some students who don't complete your course. So, yeah, a 100% course completion? No. That's not what we're going for.

Shannon Boyer [00:12:40]:

But should you care about whether or not your students as a whole are, you know, completing your course and benefiting from it? Absolutely. Otherwise, why are you doing this?

Val Selby [00:12:50]:

Right. And I know that you had also mentioned because when you are a course creator and you've been doing it for a really long time, you get caught up in creating new, and you don't go back. Yes. And you don't tweak and you don't adapt. And then you've got this library of you know, 10 years ago, you had this corpse and it's still out there. It's like, is it even relevant?

Shannon Boyer [00:13:12]:

Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I think we're all kind of, like, tempted by, you know, that shiny object or, like, as creatives, if you're gonna create a course, you have, like, a creative streak within you, I feel like. And as a creative or as an entrepreneur, you like it's exciting to go to that new thing and that new idea. But for that long term success that we're talking about for that scalability, you do need to go back to your older courses. The ones you want to be your signature courses that you want to really be known for especially. All courses have a life cycle. And this is something that people don't know because we're inundated with the message of create a course, publish it, make passive income. Don't even get me started on it. I think we have -

Val Selby [00:13:56]:

Yeah. We can have a different other conversation about that.

Shannon Boyer [00:13:58]:

Exactly. I always do that. You don't make that passive income and, like, just lay on the beach. Right. But that's not how education works. That's not how courses work. All courses have a life cycle.

Shannon Boyer [00:14:09]:

And so you are continually making little tweaks and little updates to your course based on a number of factors. We can talk about that if you want. But then after you've made all those little tweaks, you eventually will have to do a complete course update. And what I love is that Amy Porterfield actually talked about this on one of her podcast, and she said she does a complete redo or update to her courses every 2 to 3 years. And so I think that that's really nice for her to put out that realistic expectation that it's not a set it and forget it thing. Mhmm. And even though, like, it's not as fun.

Shannon Boyer [00:14:49]:

It's not as exciting. You do need to go back to your course. But I will say in terms of fun and exciting, what I found with my clients is that by working with somebody like me who can, infuse their course with, like, a whole new spirit and make them so confident about what it is that they're putting forward, they are reignited with that flame and that passion again about, like, I do have an amazing message in this course. I do wanna share this with a lot of people, and now I feel really confident about putting it forward. And so that's really exciting. It makes the course better and it makes the marketing easier because you're talking about your course a lot differently when you're excited about it, than when it's kinda like that old dusty thing in the closet.

Val Selby [00:15:33]:

Yeah. Yeah. And that goes for so much other stuff I've listened to, like, previous summit things that I've been on and all of a sudden you're listening to like, oh my God, I do know my shit. You know? It's like it's like, that was amazing. Did that come out of my mouth? And that reignition really helps for the marketing, and all of the sudden, you're bringing new people back in to your business. Because of that passion again and that confidence because confidence is everything.

Val Selby [00:16:03]:

Yeah.

Shannon Boyer [00:16:03]:

Yep. And I think one of the things that people don't like about, like, updating a course or back to an old courses, they're doing it by themselves. And they get, like, exactly what you were saying. They're kinda staring at it like, oh, what I don't know what to do. What do I do? They don't have that, like, the that light. Yep. And I love working as part of a team to do curriculum development because it's just like the sparks are flying when you have 2 or more people involved to, not too many. Yeah.

Val Selby [00:16:29]:

It gets messy.

Shannon Boyer [00:16:30]:

But, you know, when you have 2 people to bounce ideas off of, like, I feed off of the other person just as much as they're feeding off of me. And it is such a, like, fun and engaging thing to just be doing that development or that revision with a partner and somebody who can help you kinda dial into those things that maybe you've forgotten.

Val Selby [00:16:51]:

Yeah. Forgotten or so many of us, part of our issue is we've got our expertise, and sometimes it's hard to remember the beginning steps. The mentality of, okay, well, this was where you started. You know? Because if you've been doing it for a while, that was a long time ago.

Shannon Boyer [00:17:08]:

Absolutely. And I think that that's one of the first things you'll notice. Like, the first time you put a course out, you will be made aware of where those gaps are because your students will be asking you tons of questions and you'll see those same questions come up again and again and again. And that's one of those things that's an indicator to you about, you know, what you need to change, or improve about your course. And it happens to everybody. I think one of the main messages I wanna put out there also is that no one is perfect as an educator, as a course creator. If I put out a course today, you know, with all the experience and education that I have, it would not be perfect. I would have to go back.

Shannon Boyer [00:17:47]:

I'd have to tweak it. I would have to update it. I would have to respond. You know, the industry changes. My students are going to change. I'm going to change. It's just necessary for everyone. And I think sometimes people think like, oh, well, you have to go back and update your course or change your course if there's something wrong with it, if it's not working and that goes back to the life cycle I was talking about again.

Shannon Boyer [00:18:10]:

Even if your course is working, it still needs periodic updates and revisions. Yeah.

Val Selby [00:18:17]:

I think that's a good mindset too. Flip is that it doesn't mean it's wrong and broken. It just is time for the life cycle, for it to be updated and changed. And like you said, even Amy's doing it. So yeah. I mean, come on, everyone. We know how we love to follow her courses, but, yeah, everything just needs to be updated. I mean, even thinking of going to classes and going through different training programs, I could talk to somebody who'd had the same instructor a semester before, and we had totally different experiences because even in 6 months, the world changes.

Shannon Boyer [00:18:56]:

Well and on the flip side, I think we've all had that teacher maybe in high school or something who has taught the exact same thing in the exact same way for 20 years. And were they your favorite teacher? Probably not. Were you engaged in that class? Probably not.

Val Selby [00:19:13]:

Sitting there going, oh, why didn't he retire last year? No. Absolutely. This year. Exactly. Yeah. No passion. There's no passion in it. There's no personality in it.

Val Selby [00:19:23]:

You know? Yeah. Yeah.

Shannon Boyer [00:19:24]:

Exactly. Exactly.

Val Selby [00:19:27]:

So I don't know if I wanna go too much into updating a course because that feels really big and heavy and trying to keep it simple is a tough one. But for somebody who's creating their first course or really feeling a little wishy washy with their first course. Do you have any general first starts of how to make it a little bit better?

Shannon Boyer [00:19:53]:

Yeah. So first of all, I think we've all heard about the, like, sticky notes on the wall method. Just, you know, brainstorm as many things as you can and then try to organize them. I think that while it's not horrible, it's not a horrible strategy. It can still be overwhelming because it's not directed enough. It's just have a brainstorm and what you're focusing on is what you're going to teach or what you want to teach. And the fact is that when you are creating a course, what you need to focus on is what are your students going to learn? And so the very first question that you need to ask yourself is at the end of this course, what is your student going to be able to do? What are the knowledge, skills, and attitudes that they're going to have at the end of the course that they don't have at the beginning of the course? So that's question number 1.

Shannon Boyer [00:20:42]:

And then you need to determine what are the prerequisites. We don't talk about that a lot, right? When we're marketing, we want as many people as possible walking in the door. No. That is not a recipe for success for them or for you. Now if you're doing a very beginner course and they're coming in with absolutely no knowledge, fair enough. But there is some assumption that you probably have about background knowledge that your learners have before coming into the course. So identify that and then be really upfront when you're doing your marketing about who the course is for.

Shannon Boyer [00:21:15]:

It's because you want your students to be successful. And I think some of those students who enroll and then don't complete, it's because they're overwhelmed from the beginning. And they've walked in and they're like, oh, you mean I need to have a lead magnet and an audience before I even do this or whatever it is.

Val Selby [00:21:28]:

Okay. Website or yeah. Any of that. Yes.

Shannon Boyer [00:21:32]:

Whatever it is, you know, like, you have to be upfront about that. So those are like your 2 bookends, right? Like, what are they going to be able to do by the end? What are the assumptions you have about the knowledge or the whatever background they have coming into it? And then you work backwards.

Shannon Boyer [00:21:46]:

It's the other mistake that people often make because they start at the beginning and they say, well, first, you need you need to learn this and then you need to learn this. You need to work backwards in order to ensure that the students reach that end goal. Sometimes when you start at the beginning, you get off on that meandering. Getting somewhere that you never intended or -

Val Selby [00:22:05]:

I don't think it it's not sometimes for me. It's all the time. If I go that way, it's like all of a sudden I'm way over here going. That wasn't even close to what I was gonna teach.

Shannon Boyer [00:22:14]:

Exactly. And you get sidetracked also by what you're interested in. And so you've gotta start the end and then work backwards. So if they're gonna do this, what do they need to know or be able to do in order to do that? And how will I know that they have achieved that? How will they know that they've achieved that? That's kind of an advanced piece, the assessment piece because assessment doesn't mean test. It doesn't have to mean test, but it does mean how will you and the student know that they're able to do that thing you expect them to do.

Val Selby [00:22:43]:

Right.

Shannon Boyer [00:22:43]:

So it's kinda like an advanced thing. But basically, you're starting at the end and you're working backwards. What do they need to be able to do or know? What attitudes do they have to have in order to be able to achieve that? And then back, back, back, back.

Val Selby [00:22:54]:

Yeah. Yep. And and I think those are 2 very key things right there for so much online. For so much. And that is one of the reasons why some of us that are using ChatGPT in a different way are going to stand out because that's not how ChatGPT works. It doesn't go with working backwards to get to a goal. It just gives all of the steps.

Shannon Boyer [00:23:18]:

Yeah. Yeah. And I think where I think ChatGPT can come in is, like, the kind of that brainstorming process to get your wheels if you're stuck and you're staring at a blank wall and you need to kind of get your wheels turning, that's whether it can come in to get your wheels turning. It is not going to create a course for you. Well, it actually could. It could create a course. Is it gonna create a good course? Probably not.

Shannon Boyer [00:23:42]:

Is it gonna create a course that, you know, gives you that long term scalable success that you're looking for? No. Because there are other components that need to be put into a course. And if you want your course to stand out in the noise and, you know, in the crowd that is just amassing daily, you need to have some of those other human components in your course as well as that stellar content that we're talking about.

Val Selby [00:24:06]:

Yeah. And set yourself apart so that you've got a higher percentage of completion, which as educators, you know, that's our goal. That's our excitement. I mean, that's like, looking at your website, that's the thing to get raving fans that are craving your next course. Okay. What's the next step? I learned so much in this. Now I want more. I need more.

Val Selby [00:24:26]:

I gotta have more. When are you gonna give me more? Here's my concern.

Shannon Boyer [00:24:29]:

Exactly. And then once people have that know, like, and trust you and they see that you can give them results, they're willing to buy that higher ticket item off of you. So then all of a sudden that client has more potential value, to you. You know, even going to another industry like human resources, they always say that it's less expensive to keep the employees you have then to constantly be recruiting new employees, it's much more expensive. And same thing with customers and clients. Right? It is less expensive to keep that customer on a customer journey within your business than to constantly be trying to recruit and, you know, indoctrinate.

Val Selby [00:25:11]:

Right? To. Yeah. Yeah. And create something new because you need to get more events. You need to get this. You need to build your list. It's like, well, what if you talk the list that you already have. Yeah.

Val Selby [00:25:22]:

And work with them. Awesome. Okay. I don't wanna overload my people I know that you just gave some really fantastic tips for them to take in, for me to take in, as well. But is there anything last that you would like to leave listeners with? I know I put you on the spot, so you can say no. You can take the clarity in it.

Val Selby [00:25:47]:

Yeah.

Shannon Boyer [00:25:47]:

Well, you know, I don't want to overwhelm people. That's the opposite of the message that I want to give. I wanna be upfront though about the truth, which is that creating a course is a lot of work. And so choose a topic that you're passionate about that you love because you're gonna be in it for the long haul. You're gonna be getting into the nitty gritty of it. You're gonna be dealing with it for a long time and doing that up those updates and everything else. So make sure you pick something that you're passionate about and something that you wanna spend a lot of time with. And when you do come up against those barriers or those walls, do not think that it's because of you and that you were not meant to do this.

Shannon Boyer [00:26:29]:

Everybody comes up against those barriers in those walls. It's to be expected. It's normal. And if and when you reach the point where you realize either that, you know, there's something that you don't have the skills to do in terms of course creation or there's just something that you don't wanna spend the time to learn, then reach out to somebody else and get some help because if you do really do want to create a course, it's possible. It's definitely possible.

Val Selby [00:26:55]:

Absolutely. And I know this is a good segue. I know that you've got your "7 Things Your Online Course MUST Include to Max Student Referrals." Yes. So that's a free download guide, and I will put that in the show notes For everybody to go in and get that, and that way they can get in touch with you as well. Because, yeah, you're already a wealth of information just in this short little time period, so thank you for that. But I can only imagine what working with you would be like to create and and change and adapt and make it smoother.

Shannon Boyer [00:27:30]:

Yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah. And on my website, there's also an opportunity for a free discovery call with me, which truly is a discovery call. It's not an icky sales call. That is not how I work. It's a conversation about what are you trying to do, you know, where might I be able to help, and just a nice friendly chat. So if somebody is interested in exploring, working with a curriculum coach or a content coach, there's that opportunity as well.

Val Selby [00:27:56]:

Yeah. Awesome. And why not? Why wouldn't you? Bigger brain. Bigger brain. Get a little bit of her expertise. Perfect. So thank you so much, Shannon for being here, and I can't wait for some of my followers to dig in with you, hopefully.

Val Selby [00:28:15]:

And I hope that everybody that does gets in touch with me and lets me know how it went, and I wanna see their courses.

Shannon Boyer [00:28:22]:

For sure. Thank you so much for having me.